about the 2007 speech? it's as denigrating to the audience as biden in his recent change speech. one of the reasons is that the national liberal media doesn't talk about such things. special debate coverage next. ♪ this is fox business coverage of election 2012, the presidential debates. here's is neil cavuto. ♪ neil: welcome, everybody, from the university of denver where we're now less than an hour away from the first of four big debates this year. this could be the most defining one, though, a chance for mitt romney to reverse what's been a slide in the polls, but not a horrible one. the fact of the matter is that week over week, a lot of these big swing states narrowed considerably, and the popular vote is virtually even nationally. this will be all about the

economy. this will be about debt. this will be about health care. this will be about all issues domestic. libya will not come up. syria and some of the increased fighting there, foreign affairs, will not come up. no doubt, mitt romney will try to work that into the theme of whether we continue to pour good money after bad in the region, that's debatable. it could be created, but likely not happening tonight. the focus on that debt, on the economy, which mitt romney is saying is going to hell in a hand basket, and obama forces say, it's a nicer hand basket than it was. we have no idea how they sell the argument. we know their people are out in droves in the room behind me where they pitch their respective argument and sort of pitch their standard lines. what i think is interesting about the room is this is the place before the debate each side is telling what a lousy debater their guy is.

in this room, it's not spinning. by the enof the night, i might be. they -- they each say how poorly they expect their candidate to perform. after the debate, each candidate will be seen as menace material. this guy already is. alan simpson, chair of the debt commission. i don't know a lot of public servants, but, senator, honor to have you. >> always a treat. i must say your humor is contagious. neil: i learn from you. >> i'm chuckling here on the side, and i shouldn't be doing that, but i am. i will stop now because we have to be serious about this. neil: you want to make sure they are serious about it. what do you want to hear? >> well, i think i want to hear they talk about what they really do with the debt of $16, and -- debt of $16 trillion, and the

deficit will be $1.2 trillion when the time is up and what they do to address that. my hunch is there will be some very creative ducking. in fact, it may look like fred on steroids tap dancing across the stage and the tap dancing here. neil: but do you think it's in mitt's interest to paneled the debt and remind people even though it could cast on both parties that he's the guy to address it, and here's the ideas. is a debate the place to do it? >> i don't know. he's got to be himself. there is self to him. i met him when i was in harvard. i picked the locks there, but the taught there, and i enjoyed him. he can govern. he governedded massachusetts, a state was ungovernable with a democratic legislature. he'll go back to that if he gets

in and begin to do it. i hope he comes across without looking like the handlers were at him out all. neil: what do you think of how he's run the campaign? >> handlers got to him. when you run, and you got a staff like that, and they say don't do this, and, of course, obama has the crack staff. he's got axelrod and gibbs, and they are not interested in policy. they are interested solely on getting their guy re-elected, like america can shovel along because our first job is to get our guy re-elected while the other issues go on unaddressed. people are tired of that and disgusted. neil: will they welcome the tough medicine that will likely go along with this? you've always told me, senator, that people are grown ups, understand the issue, and you think they'll work on these? >> we go all over the country, saying pull up a chair.

we don't do bs or mush, but math, and not myth. we don't want filtered questions, and when we stop at an hour or hour and a half, we get a standing ovation. we're not looking for standing ovations. the people are thirsting for somebody to tell them the truth rather than this mush they get this all done without touching precious medicare, precious medicaid, precious social security, and precious defense. those people are phonies. neil: what do you think of mitt romney who he added more detail to the tax cut plan that he would get rid of special exemptions, allowances, what you talked about, like limit deductions to $17,000 total tops? >> well -- neil: made the prospects of tax rates going down to 20% to a lot of people less favorable, that they say, well, am i really going to do so well under this? what do you think? >> well, you don't have to use the horrible word that gets

grover norquist to lose his mashbles while he wonders around the world and his wife cheats. neil: i take it you're not a fan? >> i'm not. anyone who signs something 15 years before the issue, you shouldn't be in congress to sign -- meal kneel no tax -- neil: no tax hike pledges? >> you don't have to do a, quote, "tax in connection -- "tax increase". you're not doing a tax increase. getting $6 billion out of ethanol, and grover calls that a tax increase. neil: you think the time came to face the american people, tell them this sort of thing that we're up against romney exploited so cautiously. some think it's too late for that. do you buy that? >> no, i don't. everything can change in 30 days. you've watchedded this stuff.

you know how it is. they say republicans carry the senate, and three days later, they lost it. the real rate of growth will be 3.1 this year, but it's 1.5. i never have seen a statistic right. in the volatility, they are waiting for someone to make a gaffe, and the gaffes are important, by people are listening. neil: let me ask you, senator, there is this end of the year train wreck you talk about. you warned about it always. the sequestering cuts that kick in, bush rates expire,atm issues, medicare issues, payroll tax issues, all at the same time. matter who is elected, they table this for six months whether it's a re-elected president obama or newly elected president romney, deal with it in the substantive way going so far as to reform the tax code, everything you want. do you think that happens? >> i think that could happen

regardless who is president because markets begin to rattle their chapes, it's like a dungeon. neil: why have they not rattled yet? >> they are waiting for this to pass. neil: so any sign it might not happen. >> in they look at america as some of the stupiddist people on earth. if you go over the cliff with a mindless sequester, $6 billion with an ax, they say you are dysfunctional. we want more money for the money. inflation kicks in, interest rates go up, and the guy hurt the worst is the little guy everybody talks about day and night. neil: well put, very well put. senator, it's always a pleasure. >> go forth and multiply. neil: family show, senator. as the senator pointed out, there's a great deal of attention focused now at the end of the year because i know we're riveted on the lexes about five weeks away, but as the senator pointed out, we have an end of the year mess to deal with.

behind the scenes there, there's eight democratic and republican senators who are part of a bipartisan group trying to hammer out some sort of an agreement, an accord, a spending plan that will shave some $4 trillion off of spending over the next decade. now, whether that comes up in the debate hall tonight, we know that mitt romneyments to pound this. we know that president obama, so far, tried to avoid specifics on this. this is typically the phenomena of the guy who leads in the polls. he doesn't want to run out the clock, but he doesn't want to do anything to jeopardize shaking that clock. whether it comes to issues like the end of the year phenomena when this all happens at the same time, who knows, but it could come up, the idea whether they table all the rates, table all the cuts for another three or six months. for those of you tuning in, we're at the university of

denver, the site of this year's first presidential debate. this is what they call the spin room. i know my first thought, i thought it was a pbs pledge-a-thons because it looks like that. i don't know if they are giving away tote bags, but they are all reporters. there are hundreds of them. there's the spin aloe, just to the right, and so what's going to happen after the debate is that all the romney and obama forces come out in droves to tell you how brilliantly each side did while before the debate, up until now, they say each side is essentially an idiot. they can't debate, barely walk, talk, and chew gum at the same time. that's called lowering expectations. who can blame them? i built a career on it. this guy didn't have to do that. one of the most widely respected figures in washington. he is many say of national to denver himself. he could be in the presidential circle, senator john thune. good to see you, senator. >> good to see you and be with

you as always. neil: i covered a few debates. we're going into them, each guy sells their guy to the closest thing as an idiot, and no matter how poorly he did, he's a genius. >> right. neil: what are we to derive from that? >> well, this has become, and i think it's partly fueled by the media -- neil: here we go, sorry. >> the expectations game, neil. i think both sides want to exceed examinations, obviously, and when they go into a debate, it's not so much about beating the other person, but beating expectations. neil: well, do you think the challenge is on the challenger? he already has an edge when he -- he's on the same field. >> right. neil: stage as the president, but that maybe given his phone numbers, it's on him to really put up. >> it is. i think that's why, and to be fair, talking about expectations, the romney campaign is realistic about

this, and that is, they are going against the sitting president. it's difficult to unseat an incumbent president. neil: in an economy like this, is should be easier. >> obama's numbers defied gravity. neil: why? >> held up, the mart held that up. you talk about the clinton effect from the convention, probably overstated. neil: bad reflection on the republican nominee? >> i think a lot more of it has to do with the fact that people, when they start paying attention to this, and they look at all the economic indicator, and they recognize that my average income is down over what it was when president obama took office, by average, the average in the economy is $4500. my health care costs are up by 30%. college tuition up 25 #%. fuel costs have more than doubled, and we have this massive debt that we're piling on the backs of the children and grandchildren. that's going to start to resinate and i think sink in. neil: when does that happen, senator? there's an argument, as you

probably heard, that the economic numbers of late are better. they are not great. better is certainly not good. we got an adp report, private sector growth, stronger than thought. still on the same day there was a report from hewlitt packard that things look lousy for the next few years. it's in the eye of the beholder and debater, but have we gotten used to numbers so pathetic, we are grateful when they are not as pathetic? >> may be so, but more importantly, seems to me, at least, what the president tried to do, and he's done it with some degree of success so far, is to say that, one, it's not my fault, and, gee, it would have been worse, you know, had i not been there. neil: unprovable. >> it is, but still, you got four years of policies now that have driven the economy down to a point where now the revised number in the second quarter, 1.3% economic growth. you're never going to create

enough jobs at that level of growth to get people back to work, and i think that so much of what you hear and see in the economy, and i talked bo businesses all the time in my state and around the country say it's policies from washington and the forum, global competitive analysis say we dropped from first when president obama took office to 7th. the reason they stated that is debt, spending, taxes, regulations, red tape -- all policy, all things from washington, d.c.. you know, i think in the end, even though it's not sunk in entirely yet, is people are really focused, and the debates help do that, on where we are, where we are going, and they come to a different conclusion, and they decide we need a change and a guy like mitt romney with a business background and experience in creating jobs. neil: we'll see. always a pressure, thank you very much. >> thank you. neil: it's all how you make the pitch and argument, and that's the burden for one mitt romney tonight. he's a good debater.

people forget that. when it was mitt romney against the wall, he responded aggressively whether it was against rick perry or newt gingrich or rick santorum. he has it in him, the debate tonight is whether he has it tonight. bernie markus, home founder of home depot on whether he brings it home, and sarah palin who knows about debates on whether this is the venue to do it. stick around. ♪

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staff. further back, the second tier, not viz l, there's a lottery that they have for the seats, and a lot are students, just locals getting a chance to witness a bit of history here. debates are always a big media event, and they always command a large audience. in this case, they are expecting about 50 million. they already estimated 45 million of those will have been watching them on fox business. that's startling. okay. quite a few is what i'm saying. bernie markus, founder of home depot. you reminded me much to the point of simpson, time's a wasting, get on it. you know what it takes to get business guys confident and hiring, and moving. what do you think it will be, and what do you want to hear from the these guys tonight? >> well, number one, no, it's

not moving. it's not going to move. it's not going to move until after this election is over, and if obama wins, it's really not going to go anywhere because business people know what the outcome is going to be. the outcome is going to be higher taxes, more restrictions due to the regulations they have. they know they will have labor problems, problems with the epa, and so we're not going to see jobs created, and no matter what they say, the candidate, no matter what obama's saying, he's not going to create more jobs than he has in the last three and a half years. it's just not going to happen. they are waiting with baited breath, and if we don't see this kind of a change, we're looking for stagnation, and i think the numbers are right. 1.3% going forward. for business, for business, it's not a good environment. there's no reason for any businessman out there to want to grow his business, advance his

business, hire more people, create more problems. obamacare will be a major problem for business. let me bring something up to you, neil. you asked what i think they should be talking aboutment one of the things that romney should be talking about, which i heard your program yesterday, you were talking about the price of gas, and you said the american people, they got used to it. i'm a retailer. i'll tell you that i lived through cycles. for instance, whenever there was a problem with copper, we had to raise prices in the store for wiring and everything else. if there was a problem in the lumber area, we would have to raise prices because you have to make up for the cost of demand. right now, the price of gas is causing a price increase across the board, and when obama talks about the middle class and protecting the 47%, let's use the 47%, the truth is in retail

business, this is has an effect on every product sold in the stores. when you buy -- neil: why more of an effect on the polls? >> they are not talking about. i don't know why they are not talking about it. go out, speak to the retailers, the business people that we've been speaking to, and this is what they'll hear. they are going to hear that they are getting squeezed dramatically. they are getting squeezed from all sides, and 5 lot of it -- a lot is basedded on what they pay because of fuel. in addition to that -- neil: no doubt. do you think there's a disconnect, bernie, between the bosses and the folks who work for them? in other words, talk to consumers and their surveys. they are not robust or off the charts, but better than the bosses polled on the same question, and seem much more pessimistic. >> well, they are pessimistic. the problem is most employers

are not explaning this to their employees. they are not going to the employees saying, hey, listen, if, in fact, gas goes to $5-$7 a gallon, by the way, a great possibility. you know what's happening in the middle east today. neil: oh, sure. >> anything between israel and iran, it goes up. what happens to the economy if that happens? frankly, it's going to have a terrific effect, a terrible effect on middle america, have effect on businesses, and it's going to end up cutting out more employment in the united states, and this is like a downward circle. there's nothing to stop it. i don't see anything out there. i think that, fist of all, romney is not addressing himself to this. obama doesn't want to address himself to this because he's aware of the fact this is a losing thing, but you take the typical housewife today, fills up that car, it's $55-$60 to fill up a car, she is getting

killed. i don't care if she's middle class, lower class, upper class. the only ones who can afford it are the rich people who are 1%. they are meaningless in this equation. it's the middle class that's getting killed. by the way, biden was brilliant, brilliant in what he said, the first true thing he said. they are getting killed. neil: bernie, always a pleasure. thank you very much. the co-founder -- >> great talking. neil: what he had to overcome to get that puppy started. that was him, look at him now. with the spark cash card from capital one, olaf's pizza palace gets the most rewards of any small business crit card! pizza!!!!! [ garth ] olaf's small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase, everday! helium delivery.

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♪ neil: and we are continuing the coverage of the presidential debate in denver. one question is what role the government plays in our lives. we've seen that role increase dramatically over the past four years with the obama presidency. how much is legitimate? how much is considered not legitimate by the voting public? a lot of people think that people have been persuaded by the degree to which the government has got involved in people's lives. other people say the tea party rebellion stirred up resentment towards the role of the government. let's ask the former office depot ceo, and we are pleased to

welcome you now. steve, good to see you, thanks for being here. >> good to be here, david. david: the republican message, what's he got to make clear about the limit of the role of the government in our lives? >> well, i think if you talk to most business people, they say there's three legitimate roles for government in business. the first is regulation. from a regulatory stand point, the role of the government is to level the playing field, establish the boundaries, make sure that consumers are not getting hurt, but then get out of the way and let businesses compete, not continue to change the rules of the game once you're into the game, not continue to issue regulation after regulation. that is the regulation. second is taxation. america's taxed as the highest rate in the world. there's loopholes, and peek talk about it.

the extraordinary rates drive investments overseas and diminish job creation here in the u.s.. we have over $2 trillion in cash sitting on balance sheets of u.s. corporations. taxation is an important area the government needs to lower and level the playing field from a global competitiveness standpoint. the third area is investment. it's the role of the government, perhaps, to invest in things like infrastructure and facilitate business growth, but not pick winners and losers, not invest in specific companies, not to pick industries, and, like, solyndra and so forth and get out in front of themselves. those are the areas most important of the role of government with business. it's important mitt romney delivers that message tonight. david: to the middle section, corporate taxes. the interesting thing is despite the fact we have thee highest corporate tax rate in the developed world, the effective tax rate, because of the

deductions and the special deals and all of the things that were worked out between the lawyers and lobbyists in washington and the politicians, the effective tax rate is 10%-12%. the government receives out of the $2 trillion that the corporations make in profits the, the government received $200 billion. maybe tonight's the night to have a bold specific plan and say, look, we're just clerking 12% of revenue from corporations. bring the rate way down to 15%, making it very competitive, and bring businesses home. what do you think of that, steve? >> well, you know, that's a great point. part of the reason why the effective tax rates are off are because so many businesses are running losses and have run losses through the financial crisis, and you carry the losses forward and offset gains recently. it's because corporations have been in such bad shape affected by the economy, but i think romney has said, and hopefully

he'll say tonight and reiterate, there are a lot of lop holes created by congress. they are legal loopholes. they put incentives in place for businesses to take certain deductions, and his point of view is, look, okay, let's eliminate that and get back to the effective tax rate. david: steve, office depot, former ceo, thanks for coming in. appreciate it. >> thanks a lot. great to be here. david: back to my colleague in denver, mr. neil cavuto. neil? neil: thank you very much. repeating the office here, we had remote issues that blacked us out completely from coming back. thanks to david on that, and the next guest is waiting, and everyone wants a piece of the guy on their shows because he's a good mayor and also very good for their rates. l.a. mayor joining us now. mayor, we talked before, all the technical problems there, you have been leading the charge. you have to do a bipartisan

thing. you were one of the early prominent democratic figures saying we have to reign in public union costs, but you don't have to do it by beamingerring them over the -- badgering them over the head. you argue both sides work together. you had progress. >> i am a democrat, chairedded the party convention, and i said i support the simpson-bowles frame work as a template. i think we have to cut the deficit, obviously, and the tune of somewhere in the neighborhood of $4 trillion over the next -- neil: what do you think of democrats and republicans who let simpson and bowles alone at the alter? >> we have to understand if we want to avoid sequestering, we have to get behind a frame work. neil: you think the president -- >> i think the president is absolutely clear that we need -- his proposal would cut $4 trillion in deficits, and the reason why -- neil: over ten years; right?

>> over ten years, and the reason he doesn't want to extend bush tax cuts, he wants to reinvestment to provide for the safety net. neil: sounds like cuts, but as you know, mayor, it's $4 trillion off the growth of government over ten years. we'll have more government, a pricier government. we never gets out of the way of just reversioning that. will we ever? >> we have to. we have to. neil: i know that, but we don't. >> in the city of los angeles, we cut our structural deficit from $1.2 billion to $250 million. the federal government is going to have to put a plan to do that. i hope that after the election, they'll do that together, democrat and republican. neil: the seminole moment when you asked the public unions as a democrat that we have to do something. the direction we are going is not good. you got concessions out of them,

but you didn't bludgeon them. what did you do? >> got to go from 6% to 11%, current employees, saving us about $3 billion. neil: you sold it on the notion -- >> income and protection security -- neil: in other words, may way or you could lose everything? >> go it this way or you could lose everything. neil: chris chris kristy is arg. what's going on here? >> i think when you a mayor, a governor, you understand that you got to chart a sustainable path forward. you can't keep on having deficits that undermind the economy, and undermind your state's ability to pay for important services like education, like investment and infrastructure. it's as simple as that. neil: mayor, thanks for the patients. >> thank you. neil: always very good. the fact of the matter is, you

know, democrat or republican, we talk here on this business show. it's about being pragmatic, moving the ball forward. a city like los angeles, tough run to run. he's done -- he's done just that. this is the seat of the debate hall right now where we are about 25 minutes away from the candidates entering that room, and they will begin the first of what will be four presidential debates. a lot at stake. for mitt romney, but i could argue just as much for the president. remember, it's the president who kind of enters this like the heavy weight champ because he's the president and everyone expects him to do good because, well, he's the president. he's had this job for better part of three and a half years so he's going to be good at it. always be a surprise if he with weren't. mitt romney is the other guy who was -- who had 20 some odd debates over the course of 40 some odd months.

he's well seasoned and well practiced. what's at stake for both men tonight? orrin hatch who survived a number of party threats is a favorite to survive as well in the polls. we'll see. senator, the argument is that the pressure's on mitt romney. he's in trouble in the polls, swing states are not going his way, and he's got to reverse it tonight. does he? >> well, if you noticed what happened today, they said they are basically tied in the polls. depends which poll, and they are weighted towards democrats, but -- neil: they are beyond, some states, beyond the margin of error. >> that may be. never count him out. he's a brilliant guy. the man's been successful in everything he's ever done. we know in utah better than anyone else because how he saved the winter olympics and had a surplus in the end when it was on the way to becoming one of the biggest disasters. neil: harry reid even

questioning that, his devotion, and whether he's a good representative of mormonism. >> that's the best, one of the church leaders, and one reasons he's talking about the accomplishments with people and self-helped people and helping them through the problems through psychiatric, religious, financial, ect. -- neil: even in the late stage of the game, many people don't know the guy. >> yeah, and the reason that's so because we -- i was a bishop when i ran for the senate, doing all of the things any pastor would do, only not paid for it because it's voluntary, and, you know, you're called to the positions, and you really don't talk about those. it's difficult for him to talk about what a great human being he is. neil: he didn't have problems talking about a few more details in the tax plan, senator, and among the things advocated, other than the 20% cut in taxes across the board for everyone, he built in a few more dots

saying he'd limit deductions. put a $70,000 figure on that. a lot of folks heard that and said, even with the tax cut, i'll potentially pay more. >> he's the only one who cuts taxes, 20% across the board, but he's going to say you won't get as many tax expenditures as we had in the past. they've been out of control, and i, assed ranking member on the senate finance committee, understand that fully. he says, look, there's a lot of ways of covering the 20% reductions, and the rich will be paying equivalent to what they are paying now. neil: equivalent -- >> some pay more too. upper 1% right now pays 30 some percent. neil: did he do that to reach out to middle class voters? >> for middle class voters, but because he knows that will jump start the economy, gets the economy going better, and the only way to pull out of this mess is to have actual economic growth. mitt's been successful

everywhere he goes. in massachusetts, they were $3 billion in the hole, and things were going bad. he turned that around, balanced the budget all four years, and, of course, he did it without raising taxes. the president's raised taxes 19 times. mitt cut taxes 19 times as governor. all i can say is that the only way we work ourselves out of the problems is by basically doing things that will spur on growth and everything that romney's talking about economically will spur on growth. neil: quickly, do you think they push back the rates, the cuts, everything, as some other guests told me? no matter who is elected in november, for another six months to sort this out? >> well, you know, one thing is i never saw the president come up with a plan other than to raise taxes on those earning over $200,000 a year. neil: six month plan, is that what seems increasingly likely? >> well, i think that if elected and we take control of the

senate, keep control of the house, no end what we can do to get the country under control and the economy going again. neil: senator, thank you very much. senator hatch. we are # in colorado, after all, folks, where it's a tight state and considered a swing state that is very much in demand. now, remarkable when you consider there's only nine electoral votes. you'd think it would be 90 the way they campaign for it. scott, the republican congressman from the fine state, knows why. they spell out the details of tonight's program and how it goes dun. it's very much like a kiwanis club dinner. they are saying who will speak, how it's going down, and all that's missing are the funny hats. we'll have more after this. jack, you're a little boring.

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you might remember him. the chancellor of the university of denver right now, but mccurry, of course, a former clinton spokesman playing a key role in bringing the campaigns together for this night. they always talk about the size of the podium and the height of the podium and the lighting and everything else. there's a lot of details that go into an event like this. each side trying to make sure the other guy doesn't look better. peter barnes here in the spin room with a look at what is at stake tonight and what they were planning and are planning for what they'll unveil 15 minutes from now. hey, peter. >> hey, neil, listen, if we're on time, the first lady and who would be first lady will be introduced in the arena. a 90-minute debate, jim leher moderating in the arena north of

a thousand guests of the campaigns as well as students here at the university of denver. they have been instructed no noise, no applause, no cheers, good luck with that. the format is three segments of 15 minutes each on the economy, one segment on health care, one on the role of government, and finally, one on governing itself. the candidates get two minutes each to answer the questions, and leher can follow-up between the candidates. that will get interesting. the president won the coin toss today to get to give the first answer to the first question. there's lots of coin tosses at these debates. another coin toss was over who would get to make the last closing statement. mitt winning that coin toss. neil? neil: all right, thank you very much, peter. as you said, i think they did show -- i did see ann romney and the romney family, and i had seen michelle obama and some key

cabinet members in the audience. joining me right now is scott tifton, the republican congressman from colorado, and we chatted before coming up here, it is amazing -- i love your state -- i don't know why you have the airport far from the city, but that's just me. why the desperate clammor for nine electoral votes? >> colorado is key, really, to the election, just in terms of how different break outs go across the nation. he's nine electoral votes who could decide who the next president's going to be, and colorado -- neil: the feeling, congressman, that a swing state like colorado and other states so this is like the spillover effect? >> i think really in colorado we see what challenges the nation. it is about jobs. it is about the economy, being able to get the people back to work. we have suffering families here in colorado. they worry about how much money

to be able to put in the gas tank and still put food on the tail of the that's the focus. colorado represents a lot of what we see in the nation. neil: you know, congressman, when we try to move forward, the polls are very, very tight, 8-plus percent unemployment in the state, higher than the national average. what's weird to me is that the president would lead in this state. >> you know, it's been my experience, helped in more than 50 town hall meetings in the district, people are focused -- neil: sorry. michelle obama and ann romney were introduced. continue. >> people are worried about jobs. we see that reflected ultimately at the polls. i think there's an undercurrent that the polls are not particularly picking upright now. neil: you're not in the group, but understate support for republicans? >> i think it does. when i look at the two largest communities, pueblo, colorado,

real unemployment, 22.2%. grand junction, colorado, real unemployment is 19.5%. our people understand it is about jobs and the economy. the president's put forward ideas for investment, but for more tax dollars. neil: i understand that, congressman. you brilliantly articulated, but i could think if i were like that, the president would be down 10 points. either the president is a deaf campaigner, or the republican nominee is just a loser. >> you know, i think the president, unquestionably, is the great campaigner, but in the polls, we're going to see the reflection that the promises did not work. we need to have somebody whose created jobs, put people back to work, and in my district, it is resinating. i can take you to grand junction, colorado, pueblo, colorado, people hear the jobs message. "the denver post," an article they had today from small businesses to middle class, they said give us the

jobs and get out of our way. that's the colorado mentality. neil: on the other side of the screen, that's jim, and 12 time hosting the presidential debates. moderators are chosen by both campaigns and the league and the foundation that sponsors the debates themselveses. he always is a favorite because he's always playing it right down the middle. he's not an agitator, but he calls himself an accommodator, but it comes at a time, congressman, when many in the party, the media's stacked against your guy, his problems are exaggerated, the president's are are not. what do you think? >> you know, i think the president has a lot of media support in terms of abc, nbc, and cbs. they promote his agenda, and there's folks on a lot of challenges we are facing here at

home. governor romney is putting out real ideas, substantial ideas. to be ail to get people back to work, this is not about promises. this not about being the select campaigner, but about somebody who will actually deliver. i think romney will. neil: all right. i'm surprised it's not the president. >> it's not the president. neil: congressman, thank you, very much. we are nine minutes away from the first debate, and each side has got so many recommendations it gets old, but the one consistent one that you hear from mitt romney tonight is this -- show some passion, get aggressive, get in your face. is this the night the mormon goes storming? pat buchanan on that after this. ♪ ...seems like you guys got a little gassed out there.

enough already. c'mon guys. next question. hello! what's your favorite color? what's my favorite color? yes. purple. what's your favorite animal? sea turtle. what's your bedtime? do you believe in space aliens? ...i love puppies. hash browns or home fries? home fries. do you like my dress? why can't you guys ask good questions like this?

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♪ neil: man, oh, man, thousands of journalist, a packed house in that debate room, and, man, you could hear a pin drop. it's that quiet now. i think i'm the only one in denver talking. we got pat buchanan, and jim laid out the rules, no clapping, shouting for your candidate, interrupting, applaud when the candidates enter, but that's it. pat, do people ever honor that? i don't remember debates where they were not interrupted. >> no. i can recall occasions where they laughed, and walter mondale even laverred about the yak --

laverred -- laughed about the joke over his youth and inexperience. i think what mitt romney's got to do tonight is vanquish an image, an impression of mitt romney that's been put out there by the democratic media, the surrogates, the president, and some of his own inelegant language. what he's got to do, neil, is persuade the american people he's a man who makes predictions, compassion, intelligence, and guts, and humor to be a perfectly acceptable president of the united states. this is not an oral exam on economics. if you recall how reagan won those debates, i think carter was probably more substantial in them. he won them by vanquishing the negative image of ronald reagan as a cowboy who doesn't understand the nation or the world. neil: do you think, pat, the rep you hear for mitt romney, does he has the smarts?

does he have the guts? does he have the real passion in him to get angry and go at this president, and that maybe his demeanor is -- i wouldn't say genteel, but gentlemanly, and this is not the time for that. what would you say? >> he's done that in a couple debates. in the florida debate with newt. there's no question, neil, here's someone who is a tough customer in business, who chops off parts of companies and adds here and lays off people and does that for a living. no doubt about the toughness at all to make the right decisions. the question is can he portray himself as someone to the american people as someone who has a measure of compassion about what he's got to do, but he's going to do it. neil: you know, taking a look at the debate hall if we can to size up what's going on, jim just reminded the audience of the final scene and setting the tail here when both candidates are beginning to come in first. the president and his

challenger, and they come in, and they shake hands and the way they go. the format of the debate, pat, is for roughly six 15-minute segments focused on the economy. do you think foreign issues, particularly libya and the post fallout of that, say nothing of increasing tensions in syria, does mitt romney turn that around into an economic question, whether justifying more aide for the region or questioning our financial reliance on the region? >> i think mitt romney is perfectly suited to talk about the american dependency on oil in the middle east and the persian gulf, that this place is on fire, that mr. president, your policies do not seem to be working. they are burning the american flag. we need to be energy independent. certainly, he can turn that into that, neil. what i'm most concerned about is that he -- if you will, perform as though he's got to get a 98 in economics to obama's 95.

he ought to recite the arguments he's got, and then, again, look at how all of the debates were won and lost all the way going back to nixon and kennedy. often, it was a really good one liner that summedded up someone or it was a good rebuttal, and often, it was a gaffe. neil: do you think they change the outcome, though? i mean, if you look back at 1980, you could argue the momentum was beginning to go in ronald reagan's favor. you can argue in 1960, though the race was tight, people were open to a challenger. you're smarter than i'll ever be, pat, but does it change the outcome or confirm a trend? >> i think the 1980 debate did not change the outcome, but i think it -- reagan won. he was moving ahead. i think that's why carter wanted to debate, but that gave him a 10-point victory. i think that the